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Podcast Resources

Episode 1
Episode 2
Episode 3
Episode 4
Episode 5
Episode 2:  Interview with Kathy White


Kathy White’s Bio


Kathleen Pogue White, Ph.D., Educator, and Reflective Practitioner 


Clinical Psychologist / Psychoanalyst


Supervising Analyst, Post-Doctoral Program in Psychotherapy and Psychoanalysis, NYU


Systems Psychodynamics Organizational Consultant


Group Relations Practitioner


Founding Member William White Psychoanalytic Institute Organization Program (WAWI) 

Founder and Co-Director, The Chocolate Salon (TCS)

Co-Founder and Co-Chair, Black Psychoanalysts Speak (BPS)

Co-Founder, The Gould Center, Institute for Psychoanalytic Training and Research (IPTAR)


Distinguished Member, International Society for the Psychoanalytic Study of Organizations (ISPSO)

Fellow, Institute for the Study of Social Systems (AKRI)

Fellow, Institute for Psychoanalytic Training and Research (IPTAR)


Article:  White, K. P. (2002).  Surviving Hating and Being Hated:  Some Personal

Thoughts About Racism from a Psychoanalytic Perspective.  Contemporary Psychoanalysis, 38(3): 401-422.

Episode 3:  Interview with Charla Hayden


Charla Hayden's Bio

Charla Hayden, M. A. Is a freelance organizational consultant with many years of experience consulting to groups, organizations, and institutions.  She has also been on the Boards of the A. K. Rice Institute (AKRI) and GREX (a West Coast affiliate of AKRI).  Charla has a long and distinguished career in group relations work; she has consulted on and directed many group relations conferences. 


Charla has also authored or co-authored a variety of book chapters, including:


Hayden, C. (2016).  “The race idea tends to make people wicked”:  An

         exploration of why it persists.  In E. L. Short, & L. Wilton (Eds.),

         Talking about structural inequalities in everyday life:  New politics

         of race in groups, organizations, and social systems (pp. 261-284).

         Charlotte, NC:  Information Age Publishing. 


This book can be purchased on Amazon or via Information Age Publishing:


Gertler, B., & Hayden, C. (2015).  Uneasy on the boundary:  Reflections on the

         culture and effectiveness of group relations conference work in the USA,

         1965-2012.  In E. Aram, R. Baxter, & A. Nutkevitch (Eds.), Group relations

         work: Exploring the impact and relevance within and beyond its network

         (pp. 139-159).


This book can be purchased on Amazon or from Routledge:


Hayden C., & Molenkamp, R. J. (2004).  Tavistock primer II.  The A. K. Rice

         Institute for the study of social systems.  In S. Cytrynbaum, & D. Noumair

         (Eds.), Group dynamics, organizational irrationality, and social complexity: 

         Group relations reader 3 (pp. 135-157).  Jupiter, FL:  The A. K. Rice



This book can be purchased on the A. K. Rice website:

If you are not an A. K. Rice member and wish to purchase the book, please contact:

Episode 4:  Interview with Mary McRae

Mary B. McRae, Ed. D.

Mary B. McRae, is a retired New York University professor of Applied Psychology, where she taught courses in Group Dynamics and Multicultural Counseling for 27 years.  Her scholarship involves a psychoanalytic and systemic study of authority and leadership in group and organizational life.  She has used the Group Relations Model as a lens to explore working with racial and cultural differences when individuals take up different roles of authority and power.  She developed the “Working with Differences” group relations conference series at NYU, providing an experiential laboratory to study racial and cultural dynamics as they occurred in the here and now life of groups and the organization.

She has directed and worked on staff of Group Relations Conferences in the United States and internationally, including co-director of the Leicester Conference. She has published a book, an educational video and many articles and book chapters focusing on racial and cultural dynamics in group and organizational life.  She currently is in private practice as a psychoanalytically oriented psychotherapist.  She is also a consultant, and executive coach.  Dr. McRae is a fellow and affiliate in the A. K. Rice Institute for the Study of Social Systems, a member of the New York Center for the Study of Groups, Organizations and Social Systems, and Group Relations International.  She is also a member of the Eastern Group Psychotherapy Society.


Dr. McRae was recently elected as the president of the board of trustees of the William Alanson White Institute, where she looks forward to working to broaden and sustain it mission in interpersonal psychoanalysis.


Mary McRae has a new publication entitled:  The Shame of Knowing and Not Knowing:  Race and Social Class Group Dynamics.  The reference is:  Journal of Organisational and Social Dynamics, 23(2) 165-180, 2023.


This journal can be found on:">


Mary McRae has a variety of publications including:


Class, race and gender:  Person-in-role implications in taking up the directorship.  In S. Cytrynbaum, D. A. Noumair, (Eds.), Group dynamics, organizational irrationality, and social complexity:  Group relations reader 3.  Jupiter, FL:  A. K. Rice institute for the Study of Social Systems.


This book can be purchased on the A. K. Rice website:

If you are not an A. K. Rice member and wish to purchase the book, please contact:


McRae, M. B., & Short, E. L. (2010).  Racial and cultural dynamics in group and

            organizational life:  Crossing boundaries.  Thousand Oaks, CA:  Sage.


This book can be purchased on Amazon and Sage website:

Episode 5:  Interview with Evangeline Sarda

Evangeline Sarda’s Bio:

Evangeline Sarda, JD, she, her, hers, is an Associate Clinical Law Professor at Boston College Law School, where she is the former Faculty Director of Leaders Entering and Advancing Public Service (LEAPS), a Co-Director of the Criminal Legal Clinic, and the Director of the Prosecution Clinic. She is a co-creator of Group Relations International (GRI) and a Fellow of the A. K. Rice Institute for the Study of Social Systems (AKRI) and a member of several of its affiliates, including the Mid-West Center, the Boston Center, and the New York Center. She is Treasurer of the Research and Education Collaborative with Al-Quds University (RECA). She is of Philippine and Indian descent and has a large extended family. Her parents migrated to the US from the Philippines and she grew up with her brothers and sister in Texas and then New York. She graduated from Yale College and spent a year teaching at Hillhouse High School in New Haven before attending Columbia Law School where she was an executive editor of the Columbia Journal of Human Rights and a founding member of the Columbia Journal of Gender and Law. After law school, she was a domestic violence prosecutor with the Middlesex District Attorney’s Office, and then left to teach at Boston College Law School in 1995. She is married and has three children. She has lived in Massachusetts for over 30 years, and is active in sports and yoga, hosts occasional music events, and is a devotee of group relations.

Evangeline Sarda will be directing the A. K. Rice Institute’s 2024 National Conference:

The A.K. Rice Institute is excited to announce that registration is open for AKRI's 2024 National Conference, AUTHORITY, LEADERSHIP AND LEGACY: WORKING WITHIN DIVIDES. This conference is a collaboration with Group Relations International (GRI) and will be directed by Evangeline Sarda, JD. For more information and to register, visit the conference website at The conference brochure is attached. Please contact us at with any questions.



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